Monday
Jan262009
How to hire tech-qualified lawyers
Mon, January 26, 2009 A lawyer friend of mine started his own law firm couple of years ago, which has grown tremendously. One of the big challenges he faces is hiring lawyers who are tech-savvy. I asked him if he had any tricks for weeding out those who couldn't cut it at his firm.
First of all, he automatically discounts heavily anyone who submits their resume in Word or WordPerfect form. His law firm uses PDF's extensively, and he doesn't want to have to spend a lot of time training lawyers on how to use PDF's. His assumption is that any lawyer who sends a resume in a word processing format probably doesn't know much about PDF's.
I asked him if he had any questions that he typically asked candidates to try to hone in on their tech skills. He said he really didn't because most people are good at pretending they know more about technology than they actually do. So, the trick is to figure out quickly who lacks the necessary skills.
This got me thinking...
While it may be hard to figure out who has extensive tech skills, it should be pretty easy to identify the tech-laggards. For example, I'd ask a potential hire to attach a file to an e-mail using Microsoft Outlook. I'll bet there are more than just a few people who don't know how to attach files to an e-mail. No doubt most of these people are over 40, but I think it would be a good routine thing to check for. Anyone who can't attach a file to an email is not going to fit into the modern law firm.
I would also try asking candidates to find a file by giving them a path description (e.g. documents/2008_Documents/Lebron Case/Attorney Notes). I've seen paralegals who didn't understand filing systems. Again, this isn't likely to find a lot of losers, but if it finds one then it's worth the effort.
I would also ask a candidate to copy a paragraph of text and then paste it somewhere else in a document. Anyone who uses the mouse for the entire operation is not a good hire. In other words, anyone who hasn't taken the time to learn the basic keyboard shortcut for copying and pasting is clearly someone who doesn't care about efficiency. Here again, you'd be surprised how many lawyers don't bother to learn even the most basic keyboard shortcuts.
Anyone else have ideas on to weed out the plodders?
Reader Comments (32)
I think someone should be able to write a basic formula in Excel or Numbers. Not necessarily anything fancy, but at least "=B1*C1" to demonstrate familiarity with the basic concepts of a spreadsheet and how cells work.
Also, moving an object from one program to another, like moving a graph from Excel to Powerpoint. Similarly, inserting an object.
I think all of these are setting the bar pretty low, though.
I'd also ask them to do some simple searches on the web for some facts, maybe some gov't docs. If you don't know how to write a good search query, you're useless. Not to mention, potentially costly (Lexis/Westlaw).
Here's one that really bothers me... ask them to set up a three way call! I can't tell you how many people can't do that on their phones these days.
I'm fairly tech savvy, and don't believe the first "test" above says diddly squat. Unless you ask for a pdf, you should expect Word or rtf. That's what I would send. And I regularly use Acrobat Pro (currently v 9) for all kinds of things. And it takes what, 15 to 20 minutes to show someone how to make pdfs? Wow, big investment. What other big investments don't they make?
Attach a file to an email in Outlook or find a file using a path? OK, those are pretty basic.
And cut and paste using only the mouse is not a good hire? I rarely use the keyboard anymore, but never for copy and paste. But I use the right click on my mouse all the time.
Ernie, you sound like a WordPerfect diehard from the 80s or 90s....
And never hire anyone with an aol address? Give me a break. And I say that as an original ABANet and Pipeline user back in the day.
What a bunch of whiners. Sounds to me like you better look at YOUR internal training.
I understand that I am, by far, the most technological person I know (I use linux exclusively at home), but in a post 2000 world an effective worker needs to be able to do FAR more with a computer than just attach documents in outlook and search in file directories.
I would ask potential candidates how they organize their tasks. Bonus points for anyone with a RemembertheMilk, Basecamp, or CentralDesktop account. In fact, any candidate who does not have a webmail account (as opposed to an ISP email account, e.g. tomjones@comcast.net, or johndoe@aol.com) is immediately suspect.
Webmail points:
Gmail +3Yahoo +2Hotmail +1
Ask candidates if they have ever used online collaboration tools. If they look at you like you just asked them to pushups, then they obviously have no idea what you are talking about.
Tech savvy doesn't boil down to such simple litmus tests, and people who rely on them are inevitably going to be missing out on good talent. I send my resume out in Word because it's a conventional format and, given my current infrastructure, more practical than PDFing. But, if you really want to judge my tech savvy based on the format I send my resume in, I can always send it in hand-coded HTML...
Which would be ridiculous. It's not the right technology for the job. And that's the point: technology itself isn't the be all and end all. Technology is a tool, and what's important is knowing when and how to employ it effectively for the task at hand. Someone who would rely on such artificially contrived metrics to assess people therefore seems like someone who really doesn't understand technology very well himself.
Your tech undies are showing. Sorry, but you *seem* like precisely the person tech-savvy employers are selecting against. You would honestly send your resume as an editable file and not a pdf? NOTHING leaves my hands in editable format. PDFs are the default. If a client/opposing counsel asks for an editable file you follow up with the .doc/.wpd. If it takes someone 15 minutes to learn "how" to make pdfs they are digital dinosaurs. Sorry, that's the plain truth talking.
And AOL accounts? Gmail/Yahoo are free and infinitely better. To me that says that the person is so inured to change and prefer the familiar to a fault that they would prefer the old even if the new is better and easier to use. It says to me: "This person is incapable and unwilling to learn new things."
All Firefox and Chrome users would pass. An IE user would require further evaluation - and if they say "Fire-who?", that could be a devastating 2nd strike.
Yep, but that would take more work than applying simple litmus tests, some of which, as I pointed out earlier, don't make sense.
Ernie, I've been reading your musings for a long time and enjoy your blog.And yes, I say I am tech savvy. Let's see, I can hand code in html (and have and still do when necessary). I currently maintain a small ecommerce site with more than 250 products and more than 750 pages.
I don't practice law anymore but I: have more than 10,000 hours of Westlaw and Lexis use; have been using email since 1986 (ABANet and do you remember the then-ground breaking PipeLine?); have set up and maintain 3 separate blogs (none mine); have never used AOL but know many tech savvy people who have and do; use Macs and PCs; can create CDs and DVDs with all kinds of documents and programs including Audacity, iMovie, etc.); have been using the web since the original Mozilla came out and now prefer Firefox although I do use IE for the few sites that won't work properly with FF (I don't like or use Chrome - yet); have designed editorial systems using SGML; have designed products for the short lived AT&T Interchange platform, Westlaw, the web, and email; have been using Yahoo and Gmail (and GrandCentral, calendar, docs, etc.) since they came out; know how to buy (since 1996 - I was a little slow on the whole web thing)(and my company currently owns more than 1000 domain names, none used for cybersquatting), set up, and get all the settings right for a domain name and separate the MX records so you can use Google (or other provider) as your email host; know how to and do properly use metatags in web pages; know how to and do use Google analytics and create site maps optimized for search engines; can and do create, edit and alter the security settings for pdfs; am aware of and know how to strip out all the meta information from every document I produce; etc. Oh, and when I did practice law, my research and writing resulted in making very large law firms work MUCH harder than they thought they were going to against my little law firm. LOL.
But according to my opinions about your litmus tests, you would not hire me. Don't worry, I have zero interest in practicing law again or living in Louisiana (and I mean no offense).
These kinds of tests and the attitudes expressed in your post reflect a (surprising for you Ernie) lawyer arrogance layered on the technical side of law practice. Previously, you have never struck me that way. But your comments above betray you.
Phil gets it right:People can learn keyboard short cuts a lot easier than they can learn how to be a good lawyer.
And Bryan, you need to learn how to read, which is what law school is really about. I never said I would send an editable document to opposing counsel. And if you don't trust that a LAW firm to which you are sending you resume in Word, why would you apply there? Sheesh.
You "tech-savvy" lawyers need to get off your high horses.
1) I should have not taken it as a given that the first criteria in hiring someone is to find someone with excellent traditional lawyering skills. Obviously, as many of you have pointed out, it is more important to have good lawyering skills than to have technical skills.
2) I should also have taken pains to point out that my friend was talking about the process of deciding which of the many candidates with good lawyering skills he would hire. Since his firm relies heavily on technology he wants candidates who reflect the environment that his firm has, and which he consciously developed. This is not surprising. If it's snobbery than fine let's use that term. I'd use preference or bias, but the precise wording doesn't matter. Unless, you're a lawyer who has a strong affinity for nuance in language. I know such lawyers. They care greatly about how people write, way beyond what most lawyers might focus on. They certainly have a tendency to prefer candidates who are word-smiths. I think at this point my very intelligent commenters can supply additional analogies if they choose to follow the point and not resist it.
One thing I don't regret, even though the post seems to have stirred up some bad feelings is admitting that I have a bias toward a certain kind of co-worker. I used the word 'tech-qualified' in the title to attract attention. But the more I think about it that's kind of mis-leading. What I want is someone who is curious about how to do things differently. You don't have to be interested in technology per se, but since I am that's who I'd prefer to hire.
Why is it so shocking that someone with a particular interest would favor hiring people who share that interest? There is a law firm in New Orleans that only hires women. They like that atmosphere and so do their clients. I don't have a problem with that. If a group doesn't want me as a member that doesn't mean that the world isn't filled with lots of other great opportunities.
My view is that being a good lawyer isn't always enough. There are other lawyers who feel the same way. If you don't feel that way then don't take this view personally. It's not about you. My message is to those who might want to know how a certain kind of lawyer thinks. That lawyer is me. I don't know how other people think. And I don't care to make myself into the kind of person that other people (commenters on this blog for starters) might "approve of." I see the world a certain way and I'm not ashamed of it. I offer my views for what they're worth to the handful of people who might share that view. If you don't share the view that's fine. There's no need to take my comments personally.
I apologize for saying that I wouldn't hire anonymous. Perhaps I would. But not if he applied to my firm as an anonymous candidate.
"In other words, anyone who hasn't taken the time to learn the basic keyboard shortcut for copying and pasting is clearly someone who doesn't care about efficiency."
This claim is overstated and is I think a little snobbish. It's fine if you prefer people who understand technology well, but it's wrong to deride those who don't like this.
I believe that the increasing prevalence of technology creates obstacles for some and opportunities for others, and I'd rather work with people who are especially alert to the opportunities. I don't see as many of them around as I would like.
Finding out if someone is tech-qualified is not about what they already know but it should be about their ability to learn and adapt. You need to develop test that discover what the boundaries of the person’s knowledge are. Then follow up with something outside that boundary to see how they react. Even if they get the answer wrong it’s the reaction that tells you more about the person.
As tech people it’s easy for us say if you are using IE instead of Firefox then you’re behind the times. But I find few people that can tell me why use one over the other. So when I explain to an IE user that Firefox is less vulnerable to viruses and security breaches along with other reasons, the reaction they have tells me if they understand the need to switch.
Ok, so we can all agree that Copy& Paste is an entry level ability. So can the candidate copy & paste? If so how and are they willing to accept that there is a faster way of doing things?
Do you know how to scan documents? What settings work best for what tasks?
Do you know the difference between adobe acrobat and acrobat reader? Most offices I find myself in have only the reader version because it’s free.
Can you read a deposition using adobe acrobat, make highlights, bookmarks, and notations?
Can you create a link in a PowerPoint presentation so we can use the work you did on the deposition during a mediation or trial?
Can you use any program to enhance a photo? For example brightness, contrast, color, and crop?
If not then what is the reaction? Do they want to learn these things, or do they just say no and have the general air that should be a secretary’s work? (To me the later shows a fear of what they don’t understand and it may not be long before someone suggests me, a stake and some fire in the same sentence.)
I think you need to start by asking yourself what are the basic skills that a paperless lawyer needs on an everyday basis. Make a list of these skill sets ordered by difficulty and frequency of use. I think these are the things that will help you pick a talented tech savvy lawyer over just a talented lawyer.
Let’s face it if you can code in C++ and have a easy time at making AI for intelligent programs, how much law are you really practicing?
I guess, in an interview, I'd ask these questions:How do you feel when the computer systems or software packages are upgraded? Worried? Annoyed because you may have to learn new skills? Excited to take advantage of the newest technology? Or relieved that the tech guys finally took your suggestions?
What technologies do you use in your every day practice? Which technologies do you wish you could incorporate into your practice?
How do you ensure that your use of technology protects your clients' confidence and your other ethical obligations?
No need for a test--I think candid and FULL explanation to those answers will tell you all you need.
Tom O
First, I won't accept a .DOC file on my system since they can carry macro virusues. The same file saved in RTF format cannot.
Second, and more important, I can tell more about the word processing skills of an applicant from an inspection of how they have formatted their file than I can from anything else. Have they used a style sheet or just used the computer as an expensive typewriter, hitting return twice at the end of a paragraph, indenting using tab instead of paragraph formatting, hard coding all of their fonts. Anybody can save a file as a PDF and the results will cover a multitude of sins. Give me their raw work product any day.
1) After Katrina, how did technology help you?
2) If a storm hit in the future, how would you use technology to help your law firm?
3) What technology do you use on a daily basis?
I would look for the level of creativity in these responses. I want people that are going to look at all angles of a problem. Also, if someone doesn't use technology, how can they understand all the potential angles of application like the coming threat of 4g/wimax networks to traditional radio stations and billboard advertising? You need people that think out of the box.
1) (My responses) Since the 504 area code numbers weren't working due to a bad switch, I got a new Vonage number and forwarded all calls to it. I used a soft phone on my computer to make and receive calls since my cell phone was down. I bought a Go Phone to use till I could switch my cell number. After this switch was allowed, I forwarded all calls from Vonage to my cell so it would ring both. I was already set up with an Google Apps type system for my work so all information was easily available. AIM was the primary mode of communication other than text messages with coworkers. For work, we used GotVmail and redirected callers through our system to our new non-504 area code numbers. We used efax for our faxing services. With my outside friends, I used Myspace to communicate.
2) If a disaster were to strike again, I would continue using Vonage because of it's versatility to forward calls and be packed up and keep the same number as long as you have internet. AIM is a great tool but twitter is surpassing it as a way to get messages out. Facebook would be key for communicating as well. For a company though, Present.ly is an amazing app for decentralized communication. I would use Bittorrent for uploading any public documents for easy access. For press releases I would use something like erelease. I would also make sure my domain is not hosted on local servers. I would use Google Apps or something similar.
3) I use a MSI Wind Netbook running OSX so I have full computing power on the go. I use a iPhone so I can wireless tether to 3G for free. I use a macbook pro attached to a 22" monitor at home with an on site backup of 1.5TB and an off site backup using Mozy as well. I chose the macbook pro for its power, mobility, and durability. I scan everything using a wireless scanner/printer/fax. I use MobileMe to keep everything synced at all times. I use my iPhone to listen to NPR through the 3g internet radio streams. I use apps on my iphone to track expenses, mileage, to do lists, map my runs, read ebooks, send receipts for my work, and to educate myself while I run or bike at the gym (TED.com or podcasts). I use my netbook on the go to update notes for work (it weighs 2.3 pounds). I use a label maker and mobile filing cabinet for the few physical files that I am forced to keep with me. For fun I have a Flip Video camera to catch any video worth catching. I use facebook, twitter, and google reader to keep up with friends and the world.
I have two terrific associates now, both women under 30, with different sets of skills and natural talents. One likes Macs; one hates Macs. One can hard-code HTML and solve network problems, and the other is only vaguely aware that HTML exists.
Both write clear, simple sentences in 10th-grade English and place them in logical paragraphs and lists, which is the most valuable tech skill of all, because to do so requires high-level abilities to sift and arrange information of various types. It's also a great lawyering skill, because clients, judges and other attorneys will be able to perceive whether the lawyer understands the problems that need to be solved.
Both are responsive to clients and easy to get along with. They are good listeners.
As for how I found and selected the good associates, I have to say only that they found me in times of need. I was lucky. I wish I knew the formula, but I don't.
Oh, and please check anon's comment time-stamped Jan. 28 at 9:07:08 a.m. It looks like someone forgot to turn off italics in the HTML. Result is that every comment below that one is displaying in all italics. (Does this mean I pass the test?)
Perhaps a more thoughtful way to size up one's tech skills would be to ask the candidate something along the lines of "name two software apps you've discovered recently that help you do your job better, and explain them to me, how they work and what they do for you." That puts the burden on the candidate to discuss his/her grasp of current technology and the ability to put it to good use.
As for sorting, you might also ask a candidate to send something to you via Google Docs.
I would also trust that someone that operates a blog would be more tech-savvy than the general public.